On Monday, NY Post writer John Mazor earned his idiot card and managed to bring a handful of New Yorkers with him. It’s actually unclear and unlikely that this is the first truly idiotic work of journalism produced by Mr. Mazor, but based upon its utter stupidy, this should hardly be his last.
YOU’VE GOT TO BE KIDDING! appeared in the Post on Monday in response to a scientific study on fielding conducted by researches at the University of Pennsylvania. The study pointed out what everyone who knows anything about statistics and fielding already knows. Derek Jeter is not a very good fielder.
According to the fielding bible, a site that uses a firm that watches tape of every single play of every season and evaluates fielding based upon what type of plays a players peers are capable of making and how often they make such a play, Derek Jeter is the worst fielding shortstop from 2005-2007. Luckily for Jeter, Hanley Ramirez has emerged as a terrible fielding shortstop and for 2007 is actually slightly worse than Jeter. Nonetheless, it is widely known among people who like facts and not conjecture that Derek Jeter is not very good at fielding. So, when the University of Pennsylvania study claimed that Alex Rodriguez was actually a better shortstop than Derek Jeter, no one should have been surprised. Yet they were.
The nerds over at the Wharton School have created something called Spatial Aggregate Fielding Evaluation, or SAFE. Developer Shane Jensen and his stat-junkie colleagues examined every ball hit into play from the 2002-2005 baseball seasons and developed a formula that spit out the probability of the average player recording an out on a batted ball. They then compared that number to the score of individual players and determined how many runs each player’s fielding either saved or allowed. Since this was 2002-2005, we have the unique ability of comparing the two shortstops who play on the left side of the infield in Yankee stadium.
The SAFE formula found that Alex Rodriguez, as a Texas Ranger, saved 10.4 runs per season while his counterpart, Derek Jeter, ranked dead last: allowing 13.81 runs per season.
Once again, Derek Jeter is not a very good fielder. He does other things that make him a pretty darn good player. Fielding just isn’t one of them. The New York Post disagrees.
Mr. Mazor calls it junk science. Derek Jeter has won three gold gloves and is the captain of the Yankees. Alex Rodriguez only won two gold gloves as a shortstop. Plus, come on, this is Derek Jeter we’re talking about. To really nail down his point, Mr. Mazor enlists the help of a group of New Yorkers to determine if this is in fact junk science.
The following people are idiots:
“I don’t know what they’re smoking down at Penn,” said Yankees fan Mike Birch, 32. “That’s preposterous. I completely disagree. Jeter’s a clutch player.”
“It’s ridiculous,” said fan Jay Ricker, 22. “Jeter is all-around awesome. He’s better than A-Rod any day. Character has a lot to do with it. He’s out there for his teammates, not just himself. He does it for the good of the team. That’s the kind of guy you want on the field. A-Rod’s only out for the money. For him it’s not about baseball, it’s just about banking.”
“He [Jeter] has intangible qualities that can’t be measured with statistics,” said East Village bar owner Kevin Hooshangi, 28. “He’s the ultimate teammate. It doesn’t matter what his percentages are when he’s making big plays in big games. He’s the one with four World Series rings.”
“I would disagree [with the study] of course, Jeter does a good job,” said Pam Lips, 28. “Rodriguez is OK but I would take Jeter over A-Rod.”
However, Frank Angelo, 50, gave A-Rod his due. “He’s the best shortstop in the American League playing third base,” Angelo said.
But Jeter as one of the worst?
“That’s not true,” Angelo said. “He’s a good fielding shortstop.” He even said he would keep Jeter at short. “Jeter’s the captain, he was there before A-Rod,” said Angelo.
Yankee fan Brittnay Thompson, 32, said, it’s about who’s good in May, and who’s good in October. “In big situations A-Rod drops the ball, no pun intended.”
There you have it. Definitive proof that people from New York are pretty stupid. We have Jeter is clutch, Jeter has more character and doesn’t care about the money, intangible qualities that can’t be measured, ultimate teammate, four World Series rings, and Jeter does a good job. Nothing that actually matters when it comes to fielding. Unfortunately, no smart people appeared to be available at the time that Mr. Mazor wrote his article. Or maybe smart people know not to get quoted trying to claim that Jeter is a good fielder.
Derek Jeter isn’t a good fielder. Even though he dove into the stands and broke his face catching a fly ball and even though he moved way out of position to cut off a throw to home and then tossed it to the plate to throw out a slow as hell runner that was lolly-gagging and didn’t slide doesn’t mean he’s a good fielder. He’s just not. Meaningful stats don’t lie. It’ll be a great day for baseball when a good portion of the fans catch up with the rest of us who actually know what we’re talking about. You know, scientists and stat nerds that is.
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I am sooooooo tired of this debate. Derek Jeter is not Ozzie Smith, OK. But, he does not suck as a shortstop. Are there players who get to more balls? Yes. Do I worry that his range may eventually diminish to the point where he will need to move the outfield? Sure. But, please! Be realistic. You want Julio Lugo at short or Jeter? Jeter has always made plays when it has mattered most. His game has never been about statistics. By the way, just a reminder that Bill James is employed by the Red Sox. Anyway, you want to believe Jeter sucks you go right ahead. I can’t change your mind. Those of us who watch the games every night and don’t just look at some stat geeks numbers know better.
Ed are you really suggesting Bill James invents stats or ways of analyzing stats with the express purpose of making prominent Yankees look bad?
Do you also think Sen. Mitchell intentionally targeted prominent Yankees?
The guy who wrote the article for the ny post suggested that the scientists from U Penn messed with their data because the conference it was released at was held in Boston. Yankee fans will come up with any excuse to validate their terrible opinions.
Look, Jeter is awesome. Offensively he is very good and he has a good reputation for being a leader. He’s not a great fielder, in fact he’s one of the worst at his position. So what. His other qualities make up for his lack of defense. Jeter isn’t Ozzie because Jeter knows how to use his bat. You suggest that you watch games and I don’t. That’s pretty ridiculous. You watching the games lets you see something I don’t or others don’t. That’s especially ridiculous since the two major ways of ranking fielders watch every single play of the entire season. They see everything. You don’t hold a candle to them, nor do I.
You’re the one not being realistic Eddie. Do I want Lugo over Jeter, i don’t know. It depends on how much better defensively Lugo is than Jeter and how much better offensively Jeter is than Lugo. I dont know how there is even a debate about how good a fielder Jeter is. New York minded press praises him with qualities that don’t exist and can’t be measured. Clutch, other intangibles. That’s b.s. code words for I like this guy and can’t back up why I should so I’ll sell you on things that can’t be measured. Does Jeter have more heart? Those are the kind of qualities he’s praised for, but what the heck does that mean?
Are you tired of the debate because you having nothing to stand on but conjecture? These aren’t red sox fans doing all the homework or even jeter haters, they are unbiased groups that are trying to make baseball better by helping quantify what is really hard to understand. Fielding is complex and ranking fielders is just as tough. The methods they have created aren’t perfect but they do an excellent job. I know you want to believe that Jeter is a good defensive shortstop because he’s your guy. That’s natural. Most of us do the same thing. The problem is the only facts that back up Jeter being a good defensive shortstop are the ones that don’t count. Gold gloves don’t count. Fielding percentage is meaningless because it can’t account for balls the fielder should get to but doesn’t. If you have anything else that proves or even suggests that Jeter is even a half decent defensive shortstop, I’d love to hear it.
Your turn
I’m just curious as to why you choose to write about this time and again. I know you and Chalk need to bash the Yankees and their fans like a junkie needs a needle, and that’s all fine and good, but how about some fresh material?
A friend of mine made this analogy – Derek Jeter is to Yankee fans what Jesus is to Jesus freaks. There’s no point in trying to have an intelligent and rational discussion with them about their chosen deity, because they are simply unable to participate at that level.
The Post is what it is, so it’s no surprise that a story like this would appear on its pages. But I have to say – I love these quotes! Here’s what I took out of each one:
“I don’t know what they’re smoking down at Penn,” said Yankees fan Mike Birch, 32. “That’s preposterous. I completely disagree. Jeter’s a clutch player.”
(I’m struggling to see the connection between fielding competence and “being a clutch player.” When will Mike Birch finally release his exhaustive study on this matter!?)
“It’s ridiculous,” said fan Jay Ricker, 22. “Jeter is all-around awesome.”
(This is how my girlfriend describes golden retrievers. Seriously. She calls them “all-around awesome” on a fairly regular basis. Jay Ricker loves Derek Jeter the same way Christine loves golden retrievers, which is to say he loves Jeter at a shockingly all-consuming level that is apparently based primarily on cuteness.)
“He’s better than A-Rod any day. Character has a lot to do with it. He’s out there for his teammates, not just himself. He does it for the good of the team. That’s the kind of guy you want on the field.”
(I assume that Ricker’s theory of the correlation between character anf fielding ability will be postulated shortly after the “Birch Theory of the Corollary Relationship Between Clutchiness and Fielding.” I am curious to see how his theory will incorporate the number of times that Jeter has thrown Alex Rodriguez under the bus when discussing The Captain’s “character.” Now there’s a category that we all can agree that Jeter leads the league in!)
Fans said Jeter’s greatness goes beyond the numbers he produces on the field.
“He has intangible qualities that can’t be measured with statistics,” said East Village bar owner Kevin Hooshangi, 28.
(Of course he does, Kevin! You can’t measure the ability to convert balls in play into outs with something as mundane as statistics! I mean, they’re just numbers! No, you have to use “intangibles,” which by definition means you have to use abstract concepts with no possible way of measuring, proving or disproving them. THAT’S how you can tell who the best fielders are.)
“He’s he ultimate teammate. It doesn’t matter what his percentages are when he’s making big plays in big games. He’s the one with four World Series rings.”
(Among the list of players in baseball history with four World Series rings: Paul Blair, Jim Gilliam, Amos Strunk, Monte Pearson, Bump Hadley, Myril Hoag, Jake Powell, Snuffy Stirnweiss. Pinch Thomas, Atley Donald, Heinie Wagner, Joe Glenn, Larry Gardner, Gene Tenace, Don Gullett, Dal Maxvill, George Pipgras and Wally Schang. Yes, it’s quite an individual accomplishment to be on four World Series champions and of course it is entirely attributable to a player’s “all-around awesomeness.”)
“I would disagree [with the study] of course, Jeter does a good job,” said Pam Lips, 28. “Rodriguez is OK but I would take Jeter over A-Rod.”
(Pam doesn’t even try to justify her decision to take Jeter over Rodriguez at shortstop. This instantly makes her the most intelligent Yankee fan quoted in this article.)
Oh, it is that time of the year again. It seems like every year or so, like the swallows returning to Capistrano, there’s some study on either 1) why Jeter is not clutch, 2) why Jeter is the worst fielding shortstop in the history of studies on the worst shortstops, or 3) some other inane subject that we are bored to tears on.
How about something meaningful, like the impact of team’s ridiculous lack of spending (e.g, Pirates, Marlins, Rays) on baseball’s competitiveness?
I think Jeter should take this type of thing as a complement. I am a yankees fan and I understand that he is not the best fielder in the league, but I think it is obvious that he brings something to the game. I also know that there are a lot of players that are much worse than him in various aspects of the game. Look at Manny, Giambi, Ortiz, Nomar, Biggio, Ausmus, Sexson, Fielder, the list goes on forever. The reason that Jeter catches all the flac is because so many people love him and all of the haters need someone to take out their frustration on. If Jeter was a nobody you would never hear a word about him.
The study data from 2002-2005, so it’s somewhat dated.
If you look at the top 10 shortstops, only two (Bartlett and Furcal) played more than 70 games at shortstop in 2007, . Of other eight, they averaged only 13 gamse at SS in 2007, and four (Rodriguez, Hall, Halter, and Valentin) played 0 games.
I haven’t read it yet, and so I can’t speak for the methodology. Here’s the study:
http://www-stat.wharton.upenn.edu/~stjensen/
And here’s Jensen’s home page (not sure about those glasses):
http://stat.wharton.upenn.edu/...../safe.html
Steve – you have to consider the source – it’s the NY Post, home of headlines such as “AXIS OF WEASEL”, “KISS YOUR ASTEROID GOODBYE!” (Meteor misses earth; 1998), and my personal favorite: “HEADLESS BODY IN TOPLESS BAR” (1982).
If you consider datapoints from the NY Post as “Definitive proof that people from New York are pretty stupid”, that speaks volumes about your ability to collect proof.
Y’know, Hulk, maybe you’re right. I think the Yanks should cut Jeter and see if they can get Tony Pena or Jason Bartlett.
Then they should have themselves fitted for World Series rings.
Sorry for boring some of you. It’s vastly entertaining to me to see people defend their opinions and to watch them overreact.
What entertains me the most about these articles is that I always say that Jeter isn’t a good fielder and people jump down my throat like i’ve insulted their religion. I would expect that reaction if I said Jeter isn’t a good baseball player, but I’ve never said that.
Jeter is great offensively. He has a decent reputation as a team leader (although I don’t completely agree with that), and he has made some very good plays over the years. None of that makes him a good fielder. Why in the world do people defend his poor fielding ability with all the other things that he does well? Why can’t those who love him admit that part of his game is flawed? If I was terrible in science class you wouldn’t defend my science knowledge by saying I was really good at math and history. That just wouldn’t make any sense.
And as for Jeff’s comparison to other fielders, what exactly is the point of that? Shortstop is the most influential fielding position. The shortstop has the ability to save and allow the must runs. Of shortstops, Jeter is one of the worst defensively. The fact that Jeter is a shortstop likely means that he’s a better defensive player than plenty of second basemen and a few third basemen too. However, that doesn’t mean anything.
I’m sorry I’m ruining your perception about Derek Jeter but it’s really just an attempt by me to bring reality and perception closer together, plus, as I said before, Jeter supporters are incredibly entertaining.
c’mon coops, it is a statistical report prepared by statisticians. IT HAS TO BE CORRECT!!!!!!! Just be a lemming like Steve and you too can blindly believe anything you read and use garbage like this to back up any conjecture you want.
Just a brief scan of some of the names makes me pretty skeptical as to the methodology. Looks like all you had to do to make the top ten was put on a uniform.
Coops – You’re right, i should have written that some people from New York are pretty stupid. And just to be clear, I’m not saying they’re stupid for liking Derek Jeter as there’s nothing wrong with that, I’m saying they’re stupid for defending his fielding ability with things that have nothing to do with fielding.
As for the study, it is a little dated, which is why I included the fielding bible which does excellent work on ranking true fielding ability.
Is A-Rod a better shortstop now, I don’t know, but we do know he was better than Jeter before alex moved to third.
P-Smizzle -
You’re being silly. Plenty of players have world series rings. Winning the world series is a team effort and usually revolves around pitching and defense (Jeter doesn’t do either well). I’d be really uncomfortable saying that Derek Jeter is the reason the Yankees have rings from the 90s.
As for Tony Pena Jr and Jason Bartlett, I would say Jeter is probably a better overall player than they are. I’ve never ever said that Jeter is the worst shortstop in baseball, only that Jeter is the worst defensive (second worst now) shortstop in baseball. Jeter’s offense likely makes him better than Bartlett and Pena overall. If you want shortstops I would take in a second over jeter, Rafael Furcal is one of them.
Steve, my initial comment was more of a post in reply to coops, explaining my thoughts on why we always see articles like this. It wasn’t an attempt to rebuff anything you said in your article. My point was exactly like I said. “The reason that Jeter catches all the flac is because so many people love him and all of the haters need someone to take out their frustration on. If Jeter was a nobody you would never hear a word about him.”
The list of other players was to prove the point that you can be pretty bad but no one says a word unless you matter. I’m not saying the others don’t matter, but Jeter is one of the faces of the game, everyone knows who he is. That is why so many people like yourself want to piss in his coffee. It is easy to pick apart the game of a Brad Ausmus, but nobody cares. That being so, you get a lot more reaction from writing about Jeter than most anyone else.
Jeff – you’re confusing. I’m the lemming for citing statistical evidence that Jeter isn’t a good fielder and you’re not the lemming for citing all the unprovable and meaningless things that most people use as their rational for why Jeter is a good fielder?
I love that you think a pretty well done report that coincides with other well done statistical analysis is garbage because it doesn’t support your theory about your guy.
Can you explain why Jeter is a good fielder? So far you said people idolize him so people like me want to rip him down and that he’s better than some catchers, dh’s, first basemen and outfielders.
Actually, Manny Ramirez gets a lot of abuse for his fielding ability. He ranks very low when it comes to people’s perception and he ranks very low when it comes to statistical analysis of his performance.
Ortiz is generally considered to not be very great. The other first basemen are pretty meaningless because shortstop is so much more important. If Jeter was a bad fielding second baseman or outfielder, a lot less people would care, but because he’s a shortstop, it actually really matters.
Yes, you are correct that saying bad things about Jeter gets a much bigger reaction than a lot of other players, but I’ve yet to see anyone present any information that says Jeter is a good fielder. I’m a rational person, if someone explains to me in a satisfactory way that Jeter isn’t as bad a fielder as the best research we have on the subject says he is, I won’t consider him one of the worst anymore. Problem is, no one has done it.
Hulk, baby, I AM being silly. But no sillier than you are. You’re baiting Yankee fans. Which, y’know, isn’t the worst thing anyone’s done on this site. (Though dropping the hammer on readers who disagree with you is almost never good.)
“Jeter is probably better overall than [Pena and Bartlett].” Yeah, probably.
If you look above you will see that I said that I DON’T think he is a good fielder.
The lemming comment was out of line. But I think you could probably find a lot of shady statistical analysis out there. Such as the report Clemens just put out to prove how he didnt use PED’s. Anyone can prove just about anything by manipulating numbers. And I am sure that if I cared enough I could find some flaws with the report you referenced.
On the other hand, I do think there is more to baseball than fielding. I also believe that if you were a GM, you would be hard pressed to pick 10 of the 30-40 players listed as better shortstops, in lieu of Jeter. I for one would not take Halter, Counsell, Gomez, Womack, etc. over Jeter. But that’s just me. Bottom line Jeter is a great player regardless of his fielding ability and I don’t need any statistical analysis to tell me that.
I don’t think I should be embarrased about my knowledge at all, maybe the uniform comment was too far, but there are some pretty iffy names on there. And drawing any statistical conclusions from the results of someone playing a position 20 times is pretty shady in and of itself.
The “Jeter is the worst fielding shortstop” debate is getting kinda old.
Fielding stats, and the methodologiy behind them, are more of an art right now than a science. Is Jeter a great fielding shortstop? No. I’m a Yankee fan who watches most of their games and I can honestly say that he scares the crap out of me sometimes. Is he the worst fielding shortstop out there? Probably not, but I wouldn’t argue with someone saying he is in the bottom half of those currently playing the position. He doesn’t get to a lot of ground balls and his wild throws are often saved by slick fielding (i.e. not Giambi) glove men at first base.
It’s pure speculation to actually rank these guys on their fielding. I’ve read the methodology behind this study and it is complex and very scientific sounding. But the whole idea of converting fielding stats into runs saved or created is purely speculation. Just a whole bunch of “what if?” scenarios. To include them with proven metrics like OBP or SLG% is just plain ridiculous.
Of course none of this excuses John Mazor for using Jeter’s adoring fans to “prove” that the study is wrong. Gee, John. What did you think they were gonna say?
Jeff -
Coops point was about players on the list not playing shortstop anymore today, which makes the list dated. All of the players on the list met the minimum criteria of having at least 600 balls hit to them.
I agree with you about everything else. Fiedling is only part of the equation when it comes to saying if a player is good or not.
B.E. -
Fielding stats are difficult for most fans to grasp because we don’t get a chance to see everyone play. If you watch the games as much as you say then you are likely a pretty good authority on Jeter’s ability but where you can’t be trusted is comparing him to other players. This is everyone’s problem. I see Rafael Furcal play more than any other player but I don’t feel comfortable comparing his skills based upon just my observations.
This study as well as the fielding bible and the work of David Pinto involve watching every single play for every player. The problem we run into is alleviated by their methods. Their ranking systems are actually very good and that they use slightly different methods and seem to have very similar results (adam everett is always ranked very high and jeter and michael young are low) gives weight to the idea that Jeter and Young aren’t very good fielders and Everett is. They’re not perfect and having read over them there are flaws, but the flaws are minor and aren’t going to swing the data. I wouldn’t call it perfect but I wouldn’t call it speculation either.
Hanley Ramirez, according the fielding bible, was the worst shortstop in baseball last season and I feel he should have been the MVP of the NL. Fielding isn’t everything, it’s just part of the equation.
Ed watches every game with his own two gritty, hustling eyeballs, so you nerds can’t teach him anything! Unfortunately he must be HAMMERED every night the Yankees are on if he thinks DJ is a good fielder. But I bet Ed hustles through his life, playing the game the right way, just like Jeter. I play baseball the right way (keeping count of strikes, balls, outs; I run the bases in the proper order, and catch balls with a glove) but it doesn’t mean I’m any good.